Emperor L
[ Posts : 1237 ]
 | [Post Date: 16-Dec-2008 22:55]
I was thinking, and as small ships are too much of a disadvantage once you have large ships, and also as new weapons are too good, I have a plan to make them all more useful. Here are some ideas for balancing towards:
Small ships are fast, and have high attack power for cost, but low defence per cost.
Large ships are slow, but have high defence for cost, but low attack per cost.
Mid sized ships should be about equal.
Of course, this brings a problem where players will use hammer formation always, so, maybe few new formations are needed, to allow players to attack enemy back lines.
I think a few new formations may be needed for this, to make tactics more important. Right now, big ships are all you need, so formations make little difference if all you have is titans.
Anyway, for this, I was thinking of calculating best values, instead of just trying to think of them.
What do you think? I think it gives all classes more use, and can be useful in battle.
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Maverick
[ Posts : 1331 ]
 | [Post Date: 17-Dec-2008 19:05]
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I was thinking, and as small ships are too much of a disadvantage once you have large ships, and also as new weapons are too good, I have a plan to make them all more useful. Here are some ideas for balancing towards:
Small ships are fast, and have high attack power for cost, but low defence per cost.
Large ships are slow, but have high defence for cost, but low attack per cost.
Mid sized ships should be about equal.
Of course, this brings a problem where players will use hammer formation always, so, maybe few new formations are needed, to allow players to attack enemy back lines.
I think a few new formations may be needed for this, to make tactics more important. Right now, big ships are all you need, so formations make little difference if all you have is titans.
Anyway, for this, I was thinking of calculating best values, instead of just trying to think of them.
What do you think? I think it gives all classes more use, and can be useful in battle.
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All you say is true and could be a version. Unfortunatelly I'm restricted by current system and can play only by its rules , unless I want to rewrite it from scratch  .
So, I can play only with Speed, Shields, Armour and Equipment Space. I've put some changes on paper for next round. Lets see how it will work.
PS: DQ:Empires was balanced almost a half year. 
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Emperor L
[ Posts : 1237 ]
| [Post Date: 17-Dec-2008 20:01]
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Unfortunatelly I'm restricted by current system and can play only by its rules , unless I want to rewrite it from scratch .
So, I can play only with Speed, Shields, Armour and Equipment Space. I've put some changes on paper for next round. Lets see how it will work.
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Yeah, I guess  .
So, for ships...all you can change for dammage is shield, armour and weapons stats...
So, if better armour was much more expencive, as to make it too costly for small ships, then only large ships would benefit (cost wise) from having good armour...
Say if corvette build cost is 100, and titan is 1890, and best armour costs 1000, then this is 10x corvette build cost, and just not worth it (although possible).
This way, large ships get great bonus for defence per cost, where small ships do not...
Next, balancing for attack to be best on small ships...
For large ships, increase base cost. So as to make cost/space (cost per space) higher than that of the small ships. Therfore, this makes equiping weapons on a small ship cheaper (as space used is cheaper), and makes small ships have lower cost per attack.
Where big ships have lower cost per defence, so cheaper to defend...
Next, make all torpedoes same size, but different attack and cost. This means even corvette can equip all torpedoes, and as they are like missiles, should be same sort of size (just more powerful)...
Beams on other hand, require larger cannons for better attack, so the size increases, as does power, and so, only larger ships can equip largest beams. This gives some different ways to research. Either stick with small ships, low defence and torpedoes (ok near start), but later, large ships provide greater defence, and beams are good for large ships...
Not sure, it may work...
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PS: DQ:Empires was balanced almost a half year.
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Yeah, it takes a while, but I guess their is a 'perfect' balance, its just finding it...
This message was edited by Emperor L
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Emperor L
[ Posts : 1237 ]
| [Post Date: 18-Dec-2008 00:48]
I wrote a spreadsheet to see how values work out, and its quite difficult to find good values for everything.
So far I managed to find something like what I mean, at least I have some values for ship classes, and for armour and shields. Havent done anything about weapons yet.
Anyway, its not perfect, as titan class + best armour costs 4400 already, and has 13200 defence...this is still without weapons or anything else, BUT, as weapons will be much smaller, then they should end up making titans more poweful to counter the extra cost, and while increase in attack will be much higher, extra defence will make up for this
Anyway, I could email it if you want? It could be useful for testing any values you have, but it isnt finished yet though
EDIT: I have some values for beams, and they are quite interesting, some while more advanced specialise in attacks VS shields or armour, and others are more equaly balanced. This means that for example lazer turret is great early weapon against shields (only beaten by subspace), but terrible against armour, while antimatter it best weapon against armour, better than subspace, but bad against shield, where subspace is good against both, still making it overall best, but not the best VS armour. So, weapons have different strengths and weaknesses.
It means all weapons have some use, if going against an enemy who has shields but no armour, then ships full of lazer turrets would be the best, and much cheaper than using ships with subspace probably, but if they have armour, your ships would suffer terrible losses. Mixing weapons and knowing your enemy fleets and techs would be an important part of strategy
This message was edited by Emperor L
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Maverick
[ Posts : 1331 ]
| [Post Date: 18-Dec-2008 10:38]
Nice research you've done so far Good work and ideas. I'll have to think one more time
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Anyway, I could email it if you want? It could be useful for testing any values you have, but it isnt finished yet though
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Yes, send it please.
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Emperor L
[ Posts : 1237 ]
| [Post Date: 18-Dec-2008 19:29]
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Nice research you've done so far Good work and ideas. I'll have to think one more time
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Ok, for beams, I was thinking something like:
Beam| Space| Cost| Damage| Range| Armour Bonus(%)| Shield Bonus(%)
Lazer Turret| 5| 5| 8| Medium| -75| 100
Ion Turret| 5| 5| 8| Medium| 0| 0
Plasma Cannon| 50| 80| 100| Long| 20| -20
Anti-matter Cannon| 50| 80| 140| Long| 75| -75
Subspace Beam| 500| 320| 2000| Long| 0| -25
This gives:
Beam| DMG/Space| D/S VS Armour| D/S VS Shield| D/S ShieldArmourAverage
Lazer Turret|1.6 |0.4 |3.2 |1.8
Ion Turret|1.6 |1.6 |1.6 |1.6
Plasma Cannon|2 |2.4 |1.6 |2
Anti-matter Cannon|2.8 |4.9 |0.7 |2.8
Subspace Beam|4 |4 |3 |3.5
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Anyway, I could email it if you want? It could be useful for testing any values you have, but it isnt finished yet though
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Yes, send it please.
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Ok, I will do some more calculations for ship class + weapons, to see costs etc for each ship, and make sure that small ships are cheaper for attack. I dont know if they are yet. Then send it
This message was edited by Emperor L
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Emperor L
[ Posts : 1237 ]
| [Post Date: 23-Dec-2008 01:38]
I sent an email with the spreadsheet.
Anyway, I dont know exactly if those values will work, but the basic idea it there.
I protected worksheets, and you should only need to change values in green cels (these are not protected), but if you need to change others (if formula is wrong etc) then they do not have password, so it should be easy to unprotect them.
On attack calculations worksheet, at end it a column of Total Cost/DMG. This is basicaly the cost of 1 dammage from the ship, including weapon cost, and ship base cost. This should be lower for small ships in general, but subspace beam (only availiable on large ships) is cheaper still. It is very late tech though.
On efence calculation worksheet, at end is an averaged (across shield/armour and all ranges) value of cost for a single unit of defence on a single unit of space. Basicaly, multiply this cost, bu equipment size, and this is how much it costs for defence on that item.
Large ships should be cheaper for this.
This message was edited by Emperor L
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Maverick
[ Posts : 1331 ]
| [Post Date: 24-Dec-2008 13:45]
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I sent an email with the spreadsheet.
Anyway, I dont know exactly if those values will work, but the basic idea it there.
I protected worksheets, and you should only need to change values in green cels (these are not protected), but if you need to change others (if formula is wrong etc) then they do not have password, so it should be easy to unprotect them.
On attack calculations worksheet, at end it a column of Total Cost/DMG. This is basicaly the cost of 1 dammage from the ship, including weapon cost, and ship base cost. This should be lower for small ships in general, but subspace beam (only availiable on large ships) is cheaper still. It is very late tech though.
On efence calculation worksheet, at end is an averaged (across shield/armour and all ranges) value of cost for a single unit of defence on a single unit of space. Basicaly, multiply this cost, bu equipment size, and this is how much it costs for defence on that item.
Large ships should be cheaper for this.
This message was edited by Emperor L
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Got your xls file. Sincerely I wouldn't change everything so drastically. Instead I would do a change in a time. What I can agree on is:
- laser do same damage/size. ion cost/size a bit more for its specialization.
- plasma and anti-matter do same damage/size. anti cost/size a bit more for its specialization.
- laser, ion are short range. plasma, anti - medium, Subspace - long
having torps of same size its maybe more logical but not practical in DQH. another thing is that I don't want having tons of beams and torps on a single ship. it will overload our db with calculations.
So here are my options:
- nuclear, photon have same damage/size. photon cost/size a bit more for its specialization.
- plasma and anti-matter do same damage/size. anti cost/size a bit more for its specialization.
Speed:
Engines will have new values - 1,3,5,6,7,8
Speed bonuses for ships:
Corvete - 8
Frigatte - 6
Desroyer - 4
Cruiser - 2
Battleship - 1
Titan - 0
Colonization ship - 0
drop ship - 4
drone - 12
Equipment cost will be decreased a bit (about 20%).
Maintenance will be increased a bit (about 20%).
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