Maverick
[ Posts : 1331 ]
 | [Post Date: 21-Dec-2008 00:36]
As in DQ: Empires we face same problem in DQ: Horizons - number of colonies. A player could colonize forever and no way of stopping is available now. So, for gameplay sake we have to find a way of colonization restriction. Following is a simple way proposed by us that easelly can be implemented in current design.
A new line of technologies will be added to tech tree. Still dont know how to cal it, but lets call it "Astro Government". Each level from this line will increase maximum number of colonies that can be created via colonization. All extra should be conquered. (Very similar to DQ:E)
Initially any empire can colonize 5 planets. First tech in this line will give +5 (up to 10 colonies), second +10 to existing maximum (up to 20 planets), the third one adds +15 to existing maximum (up to 35 colonies).
All others must be taken via battles.
Comments & critiques are welcome as always. 
For now only 3 technologies are planed:
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Emperor L
[ Posts : 1237 ]
 | [Post Date: 21-Dec-2008 00:59]
Instead of tech, maybe a 'corruption' system could be implemented. Large empires often can't control themselves, and crime takes over.
So, maybe instead of basing it on planet number (this is unrealistic, and small planets are of no value), base it on population.
The higher empire population, the more money) is lost to corruption, and if it gets too high, excess colonies become a drain instead of benifit. So while players can in theory take any number of planets, lots of large, heavliy populated planets becomes a drain. It also prevents any empire from becoming too big, and being unstoppable to other players
I don't know what values are best, but a large alpha gaea, with Planetary biospheres has (I think) 25 population. Now, 50 planets like this is really about absolute maximum players should get I would say, so, thats 1250 population.
Now, as it should be about limiting empire size, and not making game more difficult in general, players should be allowed a decent ammount of planets before they start to get a penalty. So maybe 1000 population without penalty.
After this, every population should start costing. Instead of exact increase per population, it should start very little, but get steeper over time. Something like C = E*(V/2)
Where C is total cost, E is excess population (Population-1000), and V is some value.
I think V = 0.1 is a good cost, it gives values like:
Excess Pop| Cost Per Excess| Total cost
1| 0.05| 0.05
2| 0.1| 0.2
3| 0.15| 0.45
4| 0.2| 0.8
5| 0.25| 1.25
10| 0.5| 5
20| 1| 20
30| 1.5| 45
100| 5| 500
1000| 50| 50000
2000| 100| 200000
3000| 150| 450000
10000| 500| 5000000
With this, a player with 10 more max alpha gaea would pay 3125 per turn, a large penalty, and it grows fast after that
Something like this, maybe the values are not perfect but something like this could work.
Also, I dont think think any techs to lower corruption should be added, it goes against the point, as it is easy for large empires to make any number of science points. Even huge ammounts.
Now, this allows an empire to have 40 large, fully populated Alpha gaea, without charge. But an empire could have many more small, or lower class planets, or without biospheres. But this is less productive anyway, so empire 'size' is about same.
In some ways, it gives an advantage to small planets, something they REALLY need, as many small planets gives possibility for orbital buildings, and they dont require population
Along with what I said about ground building cost by planet size, all planets work out useful
This message was edited by Emperor L
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Maverick
[ Posts : 1331 ]
| [Post Date: 21-Dec-2008 13:44]
Everything above is great, but it has 1 minus If we set a limit based on population then battles will be even more usless. Why bother and attack if my population limit is already at maximum?
We need a way to force people to attack each other. If limit by planet number is not realistic we can calculate it by planet size then. Lets introduce GP - government points. Then when starting, an empire will have 20 GP. It allows to colonize 5 large planets or 20 Tiny ones. (i.e. planet size = GP needed to colonize it). Then each tech will add additional GPs to your empire.
This way we have a similar dependence and battles are still the only way to extend over the limit.
This message was edited by Maverick
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Emperor L
[ Posts : 1237 ]
| [Post Date: 21-Dec-2008 14:35]
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Everything above is great, but it has 1 minus If we set a limit based on population then battles will be even more usless. Why bother and attack if my population limit is already at maximum?
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Good point. I was thinking it would limit empires from growing to big (by any means), but I guess battles would become useless...
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We need a way to force people to attack each other. If limit by planet number is not realistic we can calculate it by planet size then. Lets introduce GP - government points. Then when starting, an empire will have 20 GP. It allows to colonize 5 large planets or 20 Tiny ones. (i.e. planet size = GP needed to colonize it). Then each tech will add additional GPs to your empire.
This way we have a similar dependence and battles are still the only way to extend over the limit.
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That works
It also encourages players to terraform, and build biospheres, on all planets, where if based on population, that became a problem or disadvantage.
Just one thing about this though, GP also stands for Guardian Planet, so it would get confusing if 2 things used same letters, maybe influence points, or something could be better name? And that reminds me, with this system, Guardian Planet should cost 0 points, as a bonus, as they are special (and large) and players should not be punished for taking them (say if they became cleared and then colonised). It means players can always colonise an empty GP, this was one problem in DQ:E, I often found cleared GP, then couldnt colonise it, because limit was reached...
If 0, when colonising GP, if player has 0 points remaining, 0=0, so still colonise
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Maverick
[ Posts : 1331 ]
| [Post Date: 21-Dec-2008 15:15]
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Just one thing about this though, GP also stands for Guardian Planet, so it would get confusing if 2 things used same letters, maybe influence points, or something could be better name?
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that was just for the example sake Final names for 3 theories and poins still have to be thinked of. Any ideas/suggestions?
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A set of And that reminds me, with this system, Guardian Planet should cost 0 points, as a bonus, as they are special (and large) and players should not be punished for taking them (say if they became cleared and then colonised). It means players can always colonise an empty GP, this was one problem in DQ:E, I often found cleared GP, then couldnt colonise it, because limit was reached...
If 0, when colonising GP, if player has 0 points remaining, 0=0, so still colonise
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Yes, good point. Will have to note that somewhere  . Anyway we'll definitely return to it when GP will be implemented
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Emperor L
[ Posts : 1237 ]
| [Post Date: 21-Dec-2008 15:44]
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Final names for 3 theories and poins still have to be thinked of. Any ideas/suggestions?
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Expansion Points?
For reasoning behind it, maybe a law says that to preserve the natural balance of galaxy, empire is limited to the ammount of space they can colonise. This is a bit like real building laws, where cities can't expand beyond certain size, to protect the country side.
Here is it called 'Green Belt', I think other places have similar though.
But invasion only is taking space already owned, so it is ok, just like building on a place where old buildings were
Techs could be related to this, like as empire grows, laws and ideas change to allow further expansion, maybe these could be theorys, such as:
Galactic Conservation Theory 1 - In order to conserve the natural beauty of the galaxy, a law was passed to prevent empire expansion beyond a certain size. Research into the effects of colonization will help realise the adaptability of the universe, and allow you to colonize a greater area.
Galactic Conservation Theory 2 - Further research into the effects of colonization on the galaxy, will help your empire reduce its impact on the environment, and allow colonization of a greater area.
Galactic Conservation Theory 3 - Even further research into minimising the effects of colonization on the galaxy, will help your empire reduce its impact on the environment, and allow colonization of an even greater area.
Not sure, could work... 
This message was edited by Emperor L
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Maverick
[ Posts : 1331 ]
| [Post Date: 22-Dec-2008 16:43]
Hehe, we don't have a similar law At least I don't know about such one
Maybe X-Governance Theory, Astro Governance Theory and Galaxy Governance Theory? - New ways of governing large empires etc.?
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Emperor L
[ Posts : 1237 ]
| [Post Date: 22-Dec-2008 21:21]
That could work, and explain it in the descriptions why they are needed (maybe one is centralised, other decentralised etc).
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Emperor L
[ Posts : 1237 ]
| [Post Date: 22-Dec-2008 22:15]
Will it be possible to abandon a colony? In DQ:E, if you moved all troops and population off a planet, it was lost, will this be possible in DQ:H? If limiting planets, it will be useful.
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Maverick
[ Posts : 1331 ]
| [Post Date: 23-Dec-2008 00:01]
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Will it be possible to abandon a colony? In DQ:E, if you moved all troops and population off a planet, it was lost, will this be possible in DQ:H? If limiting planets, it will be useful.
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It was planned before, now it is needed even more, so yes, it is possible and will be implemented
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skyraider
[ Posts : 328 ]
 | [Post Date: 23-Dec-2008 18:52]
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Initially any empire can colonize 5 planets. First tech in this line will give +5 (up to 10 colonies), second +10 to existing maximum (up to 20 planets), the third one adds +15 to existing maximum (up to 35 colonies).
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Good Idea, but I propose make regressive and unlimited sequence of this researches, for ex (table):
tech level - Colonies - Research cost
0 - +5 - Zero
1 - +5 - Very low
2 - +4 - Low
3 - +3 - Medium
4 - +2 - Hard
4 - +1 - Hard*2
5 - +1 - Hard*3
6 - +1 - Hard*4
....... to infinity
And add Bonus +1 colony for 200 GC
This message was edited by skyraider
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Emperor L
[ Posts : 1237 ]
| [Post Date: 23-Dec-2008 20:15]
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Good Idea, but I propose make regressive and unlimited sequence of this researches, for ex (table):
tech level - Colonies - Research cost
0 - +5 - Zero
1 - +5 - Very low
2 - +4 - Low
3 - +3 - Medium
4 - +2 - Hard
4 - +1 - Hard*2
5 - +1 - Hard*3
6 - +1 - Hard*4
....... to infinity
And add Bonus +1 colony for 200 GC
This message was edited by skyraider
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Only problem is that if infinite, it is not a colony limit, just makes colonising harder. A large empire will make any number of research points, even if very high. Also, if one empire takes all good planets, other players have no chance to build, this is already case in TG right now, all good planets are gone...
Its meant to stop empire growth and encourage war, and also make players improve planets they have. Instead of just colonising for ever.
Also, buying extra planets for GC gives paying players unfair advantage over non-paying. Where in my opinion, services should be about making tasks easier (such as planets list saves searching stears by had), and more fun (such as extra smilies on forums) or providing other 'extras', such as naming planets. Not giving tactical advantage over others
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skyraider
[ Posts : 328 ]
| [Post Date: 23-Dec-2008 21:31]
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A large empire will make any number of research points, even if very high.
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Only in very very big time. Research cost increase from level by Level.
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Maverick
[ Posts : 1331 ]
| [Post Date: 24-Dec-2008 12:35]
Quote
Good Idea, but I propose make regressive and unlimited sequence of this researches, for ex (table):
tech level - Colonies - Research cost
0 - +5 - Zero
1 - +5 - Very low
2 - +4 - Low
3 - +3 - Medium
4 - +2 - Hard
4 - +1 - Hard*2
5 - +1 - Hard*3
6 - +1 - Hard*4
....... to infinity
And add Bonus +1 colony for 200 GC
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Current research system cannot "invent" new technologies on the fly. All techs and their costs are specified in one place. The only way we can do is to add more steps for this tech. But I don't see any need for more than 3 steps.
BTW: You can see new modifications on test server md1.dqteam.com (map is not working yet)
This message was edited by Maverick
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skyraider
[ Posts : 328 ]
| [Post Date: 24-Dec-2008 17:23]
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Current research system cannot "invent" new technologies on the fly. All techs and their costs are specified in one place. The only way we can do is to add more steps for this tech. But I don't see any need for more than 3 steps.
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IMHO, I like to see a real bonus from researching during all game time, but not only to the end of research's list.
By this cause, I think, that infinite list of researches for some technologies make game more realistic.
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